Response to “The Pagan Connection” Article

This email concerns your article on the internet titled “The pagan connection:Did christianity borrow from the Mystery Religions”i will copy and paste some of your statements with my comments below.

From you:Proponents of this view lump together pagan religions as if they are one religion when making comparisons to Christianity. An attempt is made to show strong parallels by combining features from various religions.{4}However, when the individual myths themselves are studied, the reader soon finds major differences and very little commonality.
From me>>We will see a little farther along if your statement in the last 3 lines above are true or false.
From you:A third fallacy is the chronological fallacy. Supporters of the theory incorrectly assume that Christianity borrowed many of its ideas from the mystery religions, but the evidence reveals it was actually the other way around.
From me>>I will prove beyond the shadow of a doubt that the evidence will show that your last line above is a lie.
From you:There is no archaeological evidence that mystery religions were in Palestine in the first century A.D.
From me>>It is a known fact that worship of Mithra began in the Roman Empire about 70 B.C.therefore christianity was not earlier,Mithraism was.
From you:Christianity gains its source from Judaism, not Greek mythology.
From me>>Agreed most of it’s sources are from Judism,but the O.T.
does not teach a burning hell,that comes from Greek mythology.
From you:To sum up, the claim that Christianity adopted its resurrection account from the pagan mystery religions is false. There are very few parallels to the resurrection of Christ. The idea of a physical resurrection to glory is foreign to these religions, and the stories of dying a rising gods do not appear till well after Christianity
From me>>To sum it up the above is a plain simple lie,you use the word false above which means a lie.I am going to use quotes from  an early church father that proves your statement above a bare faced lie.His name is Justin Martyr he wrote around 150 a.d.why christianity wants to lie and say paganism copied from christianity is the most ignorant thing you can do,i guess you hope no one will research your claim.When trying to convert the pagan Trypho to christianity here is what Justin admits.

Justin Martyr:
“When we say that the Word, who is the first-birth of God, was produced without sexual union, and that He, Jesus Christ, our Teacher, was crucified and died, and rose again, and ascended into heaven, we propound nothing different from what you believe regarding those whom you esteem sons of Jupiter.” Apology 21 by Justin Martyr

From me>>Justin Martyr here admits # 1.That he was writting to a pagan and admitting Jupiter(or Jove)a Sun God was earlier than the Jesus claim.# 2.Justin admits also that Jupiter was supposedly born of a virgin(without sexual union).# 3.Jupiter was crucified and died,just like the Jesus claim.# 4.Jupiter rose again,just like Jesus.# 5. He(Jupiter) ascended to heaven,just like Jesus.# 6.In fact then Justin says that Jesus was no different than Jupiter,well Jupiter was a Sun God therefore Jesus being just like him (no different)was a Sun God also.
Next is a Justin Martyr paste that shows when you elesewhere claim Greek gods were only vegatation gods that you lied again,Dionysus below is a Greek god.

Justin Martyr:

From me>>Here again Justin admits another Sun God(actually there were dozens) before Jesus arose and ascended to heaven,the similarities between earlier dying and resurrecting sun gods was bothering Justin so much that all he could think of was blaming it on the Devil knowing the prophecies of the O.T. in advance of god’s supposed plan and imatating(counterfeited) them before god did.It takes a complete mind controlled idiot to make such a lying claim that paganism copied off of christianity when every tale about Jesus in the N.T.can be found centurys earlier than christianity told about sun gods.Even Mithra which christianity likes to claim copied off of christianity began in the Roman Empire about 70 or 80 B.C.or about 130 years before Jesus was claimed to be crucified.So who copied off of who?

Justin Martyr:

From me>>Here is shown more similarities between the Jesus tales and earlier sun god tales,remember John 15:1-6 about Jesus being the vine,well above it shows the Jesus wine tale was told earlier in sun god mysteries.
Another paste from Justin:

Justin Martyr:

From me>>Again Justin must make excuses because the sun god tales(paganism)were earlier than christianity and the Jesus tale so similar.Even your Bible shows you a liar when you claim pagans copied off the N.T.claims.Christmas(same custom not yet named Christmas)was celebrated as a pagan custom and shown in Jer.10:2-5 later the Roman Catholics copied this pagan custom into the Jesus birth tale calling itCHRISTS-MASS,same custom re-named.Easter(Ishtar or Estorte) was a pagan custom way back in the time Ezekiel was written in Ezek.8:14-16 you see this was a pagan custom condemned by god,but at an Easter Sunrise service you see this same custom observed by christianity you face the sun in the East for an Easter sunrise service,so again this proves pagans did not copy off of christianity it proves christians copied off of paganism.You can claim you are observing Christs resurrection even though he didn’t tell you to observe his resurrection but actually you are observing centurys earlier than christianity a pagan custom.Another Justin Martyr quote shows christianity also nearly surely copied the Last Supper from pagan Mithra worshippers.If not from Mithra you can find this custom in other sun god customs long before christianity.

[First Apology, Chap 66]:
“For the apostles, in the memoirs composed by them, which are called Gospels, have thus delivered unto us what was enjoined upon them; that Jesus took bread, and when He had given thanks, said, “This do ye in remembrance of Me, this is My body;” and that, after the same manner, having taken the cup and given thanks, He said, “This is My blood;” and gave it to them alone. Which the wicked devils have imitated in the mysteries of Mithras, commanding the same thing to be done. For, that bread and a cup of water are placed with certain incantations in the mystic rites of one who is being initiated, you either know or can learn.”

From you:Our study of the mystery religions reveals very few parallels with Christianity. For this reason, the theory that Christianity copied its major tenets from the mystery religions should be rejected.
From me>>I suggest that you if you want to tell the truth(which you don’t) that you change the idiotic claim that paganism copied from christianity,Justin Martyr shows you a liar very,very plainly.Christianity that includes you will twist supposed Holy scriptures in an effort to claim an inerrant,infallible,god inspired Bible,you will twist ancient history the same way in a vain effort to try and get it to agree with your supposed but far from it god inspired Bible.Try telling the truth. 

Sincerely,
Jay

Dear Jay,

Thanks for reading my article.  I enjoy a good critique and criticism of my work. However, there is no need for name calling and personal attacks.  These are unwarranted and demonstrate a lack of maturity and character.  It reflects very poorly on the individual who needs to use such words and tactics.  I enjoy discussions with mature individuals who can give a good critique and interact like an adult.  I hope you will be able to do so in the future.

Time does not allow me to address all your points but let me address just a few. You stated the following.  “Even  Mithra which christianity likes to claim copied off of christianity began in the Roman Empire about 70 or 80 B.C.or about 130 years before Jesus was claimed to be crucified.So who copied off of who?”

I stated in my article that, “Mithraism flowered after Christianity.”  In other words, Mithraism arose about the first century B.C. but it gained popularity or “flowered” after Christianity.  Since it had a small following in the First Century B.C., and its teachings are contrary to Christianity, it is highly unlikely Christianity borrowed from this religion.  According to most historians the major beliefs of Mithraism developed about 100 A.D., decades after the founding of Christianity.[1] As it developed, ideas were borrowed from Christianity not the other way around.  As I mentioned in my article, there is very little parallel between Mithraism and Christianity.  There is no parallel in the alleged virgin birth.  Mithra appears out of a rock. Some versions teach he was stuck in the rock and shepherds pulled him out.  These are hardly parallels to Christ’s birth.  Where we see Mithraism borrowing from Christianity is in doctrines like the resurrection.  As I stated, there is no teaching of a death or resurrection of Mithra until after Christianity.  The Greeks had no teaching of a physical bodily resurrection of man after death.  The Greek writer Aeschylus sums up the Greek view of , “When the earth has drunk up a man’s blood, once he is dead, there is no resurrection[2].

For your point to be true, you need to show that the story of Mithra dying and rising from the dead is found in manuscripts predating Christianity.  Please present the documents that support your position.  Yes, Mithraism, was started in the First Century B.C. but it did not flourish till after Christianity and did not develop its teachings such as a resurrection till after Christianity.  If you can show that there is manuscript evidence that shows the death and resurrection of Mithra appears in ancient documents dating prior to Christianity, your conclusion would be true. So my statement that many pagan myths such as Mithraism borrowed from Christianity is correct and not a “lie” as you accuse.

Regarding your quotes of Justin Martyr, we need to first understand the context of Justin’s writings.  One cannot simply take quotes out of context but must always look at the context of the writing.  Justin is writing in 150 A.D. when Christians are being persecuted by the Roman Empire.  He states several reasons why the Romans should extend tolerance to the Christians.  Here are just a few.  First, Christians live worthy lives. Second, Christian teachings are true and virtuous which makes for worthy citizens.  Third, if the Romans tolerate Greek pagan beliefs which promote immoral lifestyles, why can they not tolerate Christian doctrines which teach truth and encourage believers to live virtuous lives? 

When Justin points out similar concepts, he is not saying the concepts are identical nor is he saying Christianity borrowed from these pagan myths.  Those who assume that are reading too much into Justin Martyrs writings.  As I stated in my article, there are few parallels between the Greek myths and Christianity and I am sure Justin knows this.  He is asking that if the Romans will tolerate these false and immoral Greek myths, they should also tolerate Christianity whose teachings present doctrines that are true and noble. There are similar concepts but not identical concepts and Christianity is a religion based on facts and teaches virtuous character not immorality like the pagan myths.  Throughout his writings, he denounces these myths as immoral and untrue.

“But far be such a thought concerning the gods from every well-conditioned soul, as to believe that Jupiter himself, the governor and creator of all things, was both a parricide and the son of a parricide, and that being overcome by the love of base and shameful pleasures, he came in to Ganymede and those many women whom he had violated and that his sons did like actions. But, as we said above, wicked devils perpetrated these things. And we have learned that those only are deified who have lived near to God in holiness and virtue; and we believe that those who live wickedly and do not repent are punished in everlasting fire.” (First Apology Ch. XX)

Now let me address a few of your quotes from Justin Martyr.  Your first quote from Justin is, “When we say that the Word, who is the first-birth of God, was produced without sexual union, and that He, Jesus Christ, our Teacher, was crucified and died, and rose again, and ascended into heaven, we propound nothing different from what you believe regarding those whom you esteem sons of Jupiter.” Apology 21 by Justin Martyr.

You then conclude,

“Justin Martyr here admits # 1.That he was writing to a pagan and admitting Jupiter(or Jove)a Sun God was earlier than the Jesus claim.# 2.Justin admits also that Jupiter was supposedly born of a virgin(without sexual union).# 3.Jupiter was crucified and died,just like the Jesus claim.# 4.Jupiter rose again,just like Jesus.# 5. He(Jupiter) ascended to heaven,just like Jesus.# 6.In fact then Justin says that Jesus was no different than Jupiter,well Jupiter was a Sun God therefore Jesus being just like him (no different)was a Sun God also.”

First, Justin is not saying Jupiter was virgin born, that he died, rose and ascended to heaven.  In fact if you read the previous chapter (ch. XX) carefully, Justin states, Jupiter was the son of a parricide. In Greek mythology he is Zeus and the son of Chronus and Rhea and married to Hera.  So your first premise is incorrect.  Justin is referring to the “sons of Jupiter” as he stated in his final sentence.  I do not believe there is a myth of Jupiter dying and rising from the dead.  Justin is not drawing any parallel to Jupiter.  Jupiter was believed to be the Sun God as you state, but Justin never taught Jesus was a Sun God like Jupiter. Christianity teaches Jesus is the Son of God, the creator of the universe. You have misunderstood Justin Martyr’s quote here.  He is pointing to the “sons of Jupiter”

Justin is saying, there are similar concepts of gods, the sons of Jupiter being born without sexual union, dying gods who rise etc…  He states there are those concepts in these false, immoral religions that you tolerate, therefore, you should tolerate Christianity which is a true, historical, and moral faith.  However, he is not saying the teachings of Christianity are identical to the Greek myths.  As I showed in my article, the “virgin birth” and “resurrection” of the Greek gods are vastly different from the resurrection of Christ.

Your next statement is:

“Next is a Justin Martyr paste that shows when you elsewhere claim Greek gods were only vegatation gods that you lied again,Dionysus below is a Greek god.” You later quote Justin Martyr again, “For when they tell that Bacchus, son of Jupiter, was begotten by [Jupiter?s] intercourse with Semele, and that he was the discoverer of the vine; and when they relate, that being torn in pieces, and having died, he rose again, and ascended to heaven; and when they introduce wine into his mysteries, do I not perceive that [the devil] has imitated the prophecy announced by the patriarch Jacob, and recorded by Moses?”

From these quotes you draw several conclusions.  First, conclude, “Here again Justin admits another Sun God(actually there were dozens) before Jesus arose and ascended to heaven,the similarities between earlier dying and resurrecting sun gods was bothering Justin so much that all he could think of was blaming it on the Devil knowing the prophecies of the O.T. in advance of god’s supposed plan and imatating(counterfeited) them before god did.It takes a complete mind controlled idiot to make such a lying claim that paganism copied off of christianity when every tale about Jesus in the N.T.can be found centurys earlier than christianity told about sun gods.”  You then also add later, “Here is shown more similarities between the Jesus tales and earlier sun god tales,remember John 15:1-6 about Jesus being the vine,well above it shows the Jesus wine tale was told earlier in sun god mysteries.”

Once again, as I stated in my article, when you study the myth of Dionysius, there are few parallels to Jesus.  One version of the myth teaches Zeus has sex with Semele, and Hera in a jealous rage tears up the baby.  Zeus finds the heart, places it in his thigh and the embryo grows to maturity and thus Dionysius is born.  Dionysius thus died, and was “resurrected” and “ascends” and learns about wine.  In his lifetime he wanders and has several lover including men and women.  Once again, what parallel is there to Jesus virgin birth, death and resurrection?  Justin in the context of his writing is saying, you Romans have myths of gods like Dionysius dying and rising from the dead.  If you can believe and tolerate these myths, why can you not tolerate we Christians who believe in the Son of God who died and rose again.  Why should we be persecuted for this faith when you tolerate many false myths?  Justin is not saying Dionysius’ story is identical to Christ.  That is a false reading of Justin.  Justin states that these religions are counterfeit lies from Satan.  He states this because he knows them to be false and untrue stories.  Also, these myths are filled with immoral conduct from the gods who serve as poor examples to men as Justin repeatedly points out.  Both the false nature and immorality of the gods is what Justin points out.  There is nothing strange with this conclusion he draws.

Unfortunately throughout your writing, you are making the terminology fallacy I explained in my article.  The context of Justin Martyr’s writings is that he is pleading with the Roman government for tolerance of Christianity.  The teachings of Christianity are true, moral, and good.  When he shows similarities between Christianity and the Greek myths, his is speaking in very general terms.  He is saying the teachings of Christianity should not seem so foreign since the general concepts of non sexual procreation, resurrection from death, are not completely foreign to Roman thinking.  That is really all he is saying.  A careful reading of Justin Martyr reveals this.  He states,

And that this may now become evident to you–(firstly) that whatever we assert in conformity with what has been taught us by Christ, and by the prophets who preceded Him, are alone true, and are older than all the writers who have existed; that we claim to be acknowledged, not because we say the same things as these writers said, but because we say true things: and (secondly) that Jesus Christ is the only proper Son who has been begotten by God, being His Word and first-begotten, and power; and, becoming man according to His will, He taught us these things for the conversion and restoration of the human race: and (thirdly) that before He became a man among men, some, influenced by the demons before mentioned, related beforehand, through the instrumentality of the poets, those circumstances as having really happened, which, having fictitiously devised, they narrated, in the same manner as they have caused to be fabricated the scandalous reports against us of infamous and impious actions, of which there is neither witness nor proof–we shall bring forward the following proof. (First Apology Chapter XXIII).

Here Justin states, the writings of the prophets precede “all the writers who existed…”  Christianity derives its source from Judaism whose writers precede the Greek poets.  Second, he is not saying the same things as the Greek writers.  Third, Jesus is the only true Son of God who became a man.  Fourth, the teachings and life of Christ are true and based on historical facts not mythology like the Greek myths.  Finally, men inspired by demons fabricated myths and false allegations against the Christians.  Justin understands that Greek myths are false, and contrary to Christian teachings.  It is a stretch to allege that Justin’s work proves Christianity borrowed from pagan myths.

It is inaccurate to conclude that the pagan teachings are identical to Christianity and that Christianity borrowed from the pagan myths.  Time does not allow me to answer the rest of the quotes.  However, from the first few I have evaluated, it is evident that your conclusions are in error.  Perhaps a more careful reading of my article and Justin’s works would be helpful.

Patrick Zukeran